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	<title>Comments for Mae Mai</title>
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	<description>Boldly going where no cellist has gone before...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 11:57:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by Jon Silpayamanant</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5023</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Silpayamanant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 11:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5023</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, thank you for blathering here--there wouldn&#039;t be nearly as much activity without you!  :D

And sorry for the late reply--it&#039;s been a busy end of the school year and I&#039;ve been dealing with &#039;writer&#039;s block&#039; I guess.  :(]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, thank you for blathering here&#8211;there wouldn&#8217;t be nearly as much activity without you!  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And sorry for the late reply&#8211;it&#8217;s been a busy end of the school year and I&#8217;ve been dealing with &#8216;writer&#8217;s block&#8217; I guess.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by 113yearslater</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5019</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[113yearslater]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 17:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5019</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW, I have to tell you that I really appreciate how gracious you are about me blathering all over your blog. :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, I have to tell you that I really appreciate how gracious you are about me blathering all over your blog. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;I’m having trouble with the idea that art is universal lately&#8221; by Jon Silpayamanant</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/im-having-trouble-with-the-idea-that-art-is-universal-lately/#comment-5017</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Silpayamanant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 15:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2785#comment-5017</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And what exactly is the &quot;original?&quot;  Sure, immigrant populations outside of their home countries don&#039;t have the same cultural resources as native musicians and dancers in their own countries--and that is certainly going to affect the quality and nature of any art form.  At the same time, issues of &quot;authenticity&quot; invariably boil down to who has the legitimacy in determining what&#039;s the &quot;true voice&quot; of any art.  Fortunatly, art forms evolve as they leave that original context--and since we have no documentation of the &quot;original&quot; folk dances/music we simply rely on our ideas of tradition to continue producing it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And what exactly is the &#8220;original?&#8221;  Sure, immigrant populations outside of their home countries don&#8217;t have the same cultural resources as native musicians and dancers in their own countries&#8211;and that is certainly going to affect the quality and nature of any art form.  At the same time, issues of &#8220;authenticity&#8221; invariably boil down to who has the legitimacy in determining what&#8217;s the &#8220;true voice&#8221; of any art.  Fortunatly, art forms evolve as they leave that original context&#8211;and since we have no documentation of the &#8220;original&#8221; folk dances/music we simply rely on our ideas of tradition to continue producing it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by Jon Silpayamanant</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5016</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Silpayamanant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 15:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very good point--and something that really needs to be discussed--we&#039;re so focused on the demand side of the equation we haven&#039;t really bothered with the supply side.

I&#039;ve been waiting for Brandon VanWaeyeberghe to finish his master&#039;s thesis, but in 2005 he published a study: &quot;Musical Chairs: A Study of the Supply and Demand of Orchestra Musicians in the United States&quot; --his master&#039;s thesis was supposed to chart (if I remember correctly) the supply side of graduating music students.  Here are some statistics mentioned in the Musical Chairs piece:

*There are just 18 American orchestras with a 52-week schedule.  Around 60 work 40+ weeks per year.
*Between these 60 groups, there are circa 250 full-time openings per year total, all instruments.  The most openings were in 1986 (328), and the least in 2006 (192).  The number of advertised jobs is trending downward*.
*Not all spots are awarded to newcomers—many are offered to those with previous appointments.
*Some orchestras now favor subs over full-time members, to cut costs.
 *Openings typically have 150-300+ applicants, depending on the instrument.  The Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra recently received over 500 audition tapes for a single flute post.
*Some instruments, such as tuba and harp, typically have 1 or 0 openings in a given year.
*Each year, music schools graduate 11,000 undergraduate music majors, 4,000 with master’s degrees, and 800 with doctoral degrees.  Around 5,600 are performance majors.  There is no concrete data on the percentage of these students actively pursuing full-time orchestral work.

I mentioned VanWaeyenberghe&#039;s study and David Cutler&#039;s mentioning of it with the statistics &lt;a href=&quot;https://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/plenty-of-mid-sized-and-smaller-organizations-are-also-doing-relatively-well/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good point&#8211;and something that really needs to be discussed&#8211;we&#8217;re so focused on the demand side of the equation we haven&#8217;t really bothered with the supply side.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been waiting for Brandon VanWaeyeberghe to finish his master&#8217;s thesis, but in 2005 he published a study: &#8220;Musical Chairs: A Study of the Supply and Demand of Orchestra Musicians in the United States&#8221; &#8211;his master&#8217;s thesis was supposed to chart (if I remember correctly) the supply side of graduating music students.  Here are some statistics mentioned in the Musical Chairs piece:</p>
<p>*There are just 18 American orchestras with a 52-week schedule.  Around 60 work 40+ weeks per year.<br />
*Between these 60 groups, there are circa 250 full-time openings per year total, all instruments.  The most openings were in 1986 (328), and the least in 2006 (192).  The number of advertised jobs is trending downward*.<br />
*Not all spots are awarded to newcomers—many are offered to those with previous appointments.<br />
*Some orchestras now favor subs over full-time members, to cut costs.<br />
 *Openings typically have 150-300+ applicants, depending on the instrument.  The Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra recently received over 500 audition tapes for a single flute post.<br />
*Some instruments, such as tuba and harp, typically have 1 or 0 openings in a given year.<br />
*Each year, music schools graduate 11,000 undergraduate music majors, 4,000 with master’s degrees, and 800 with doctoral degrees.  Around 5,600 are performance majors.  There is no concrete data on the percentage of these students actively pursuing full-time orchestral work.</p>
<p>I mentioned VanWaeyenberghe&#8217;s study and David Cutler&#8217;s mentioning of it with the statistics <a href="https://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/plenty-of-mid-sized-and-smaller-organizations-are-also-doing-relatively-well/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8220;I’m having trouble with the idea that art is universal lately&#8221; by irini</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/im-having-trouble-with-the-idea-that-art-is-universal-lately/#comment-5015</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[irini]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 May 2013 19:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2785#comment-5015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sorry but this is not real music. It is folkloriko for ignorant people. The &#039;Greek&#039; dance group looks pathetic. Nothing to do with real folk Greek music. How can I tell? The lack of interest in similating anything close to the  real thing. This man here does this group in Greece does the best simulation to the original possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZIt0-YW10w&amp;list=UUk5o4w_BBSznMGWg721_lGg&amp;index=5]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry but this is not real music. It is folkloriko for ignorant people. The &#8216;Greek&#8217; dance group looks pathetic. Nothing to do with real folk Greek music. How can I tell? The lack of interest in similating anything close to the  real thing. This man here does this group in Greece does the best simulation to the original possible: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZIt0-YW10w&#038;list=UUk5o4w_BBSznMGWg721_lGg&#038;index=5" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZIt0-YW10w&#038;list=UUk5o4w_BBSznMGWg721_lGg&#038;index=5</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by 113yearslater</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5013</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[113yearslater]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 May 2013 03:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Jon, here&#039;s a question for you -- how many students each year did Juilliard and Curtis churn out, all the way back to about 1900?  I&#039;d love to see it plotted out, and you might be able to run these numbers to ground.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Jon, here&#8217;s a question for you &#8212; how many students each year did Juilliard and Curtis churn out, all the way back to about 1900?  I&#8217;d love to see it plotted out, and you might be able to run these numbers to ground.</p>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by 113yearslater</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5012</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[113yearslater]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 May 2013 03:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know, I&#039;ve been thinking too about a few things I heard juxtaposed with one another as well.  One was a newspaper article about &quot;Juiiliard Ten Years Later,&quot; which followed a bunch of incredibly well-prepared, talented music grads, and how many of them could pretty much not find (traditional orchestra) jobs (the only kinds they were prepared for at J), and ended up getting out of music.  The other was a podcast by Rachel Barton Pine where she said that there are still as few great violinists as ever there were, but there are many, many, MANY more incredibly high-level section violinists nowdays than at the turn of the last century.  She flat-out said it, and she&#039;s independent enough to get away with it, that most of the older orchestras from the olden golden days just &lt;i&gt;weren&#039;t that good&lt;/i&gt;, or nowhere near the level they are at now.  Even today&#039;s fourth and fifth tier small city bands could blow the pants off the Big 5 back in the gaslamp era.

Essentially, it was much easier to get into even a Big Five orchestra then than it is now, because the schools weren&#039;t turning out vast numbers of enormously overqualified people.

Many people use the fact that a lot of conservatory grads can&#039;t find work as an example of why Classical Music Is Dying and Orchestras Are Falling Apart, but taken together, these two things indicate that conservatories are simply &lt;i&gt;turning out way too many students&lt;/i&gt;.  It wasn&#039;t the case that orchestras were rolling in money before 1960, and all of the thousands of overprepared music school grads could get jobs.  If there is an imbalance in supply and demand, it&#039;s not that demand has plummeted, but that supply has gotten insanely out of hand.  The kids who are giving up music and getting accounting jobs today would have been qualified -- and employed! -- as concertmaster for most city orchestras in 1920.

Somehow I doubt that this is something that most faculty members in big music schools are willing to admit.  &lt;i&gt;They flooded the market&lt;/i&gt;.  And they are not only preparing their kids for jobs in yesterday&#039;s market -- they are preparing them for jobs in a market that never even existed!  It was NEVER the case that shedloads of Juilliard and Curtis graduates could all find jobs in the golden hazy days Back When Classical Music Was Appreciated.  Never.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I&#8217;ve been thinking too about a few things I heard juxtaposed with one another as well.  One was a newspaper article about &#8220;Juiiliard Ten Years Later,&#8221; which followed a bunch of incredibly well-prepared, talented music grads, and how many of them could pretty much not find (traditional orchestra) jobs (the only kinds they were prepared for at J), and ended up getting out of music.  The other was a podcast by Rachel Barton Pine where she said that there are still as few great violinists as ever there were, but there are many, many, MANY more incredibly high-level section violinists nowdays than at the turn of the last century.  She flat-out said it, and she&#8217;s independent enough to get away with it, that most of the older orchestras from the olden golden days just <i>weren&#8217;t that good</i>, or nowhere near the level they are at now.  Even today&#8217;s fourth and fifth tier small city bands could blow the pants off the Big 5 back in the gaslamp era.</p>
<p>Essentially, it was much easier to get into even a Big Five orchestra then than it is now, because the schools weren&#8217;t turning out vast numbers of enormously overqualified people.</p>
<p>Many people use the fact that a lot of conservatory grads can&#8217;t find work as an example of why Classical Music Is Dying and Orchestras Are Falling Apart, but taken together, these two things indicate that conservatories are simply <i>turning out way too many students</i>.  It wasn&#8217;t the case that orchestras were rolling in money before 1960, and all of the thousands of overprepared music school grads could get jobs.  If there is an imbalance in supply and demand, it&#8217;s not that demand has plummeted, but that supply has gotten insanely out of hand.  The kids who are giving up music and getting accounting jobs today would have been qualified &#8212; and employed! &#8212; as concertmaster for most city orchestras in 1920.</p>
<p>Somehow I doubt that this is something that most faculty members in big music schools are willing to admit.  <i>They flooded the market</i>.  And they are not only preparing their kids for jobs in yesterday&#8217;s market &#8212; they are preparing them for jobs in a market that never even existed!  It was NEVER the case that shedloads of Juilliard and Curtis graduates could all find jobs in the golden hazy days Back When Classical Music Was Appreciated.  Never.</p>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by Jon Silpayamanant</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5005</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Silpayamanant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 May 2013 18:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s a very good point!  Added cost to concerts which already don&#039;t pay for themselves!  One of the reason the Louisville Orchestra here gained its international rep for doing new music back in the 50s was specifically because they focused on commisioning and performing new works rather than hiring expensive soloists to play with the orchestra.  They just recently did a concert with the Indigo Girls and I imagine the cost for bringing them (and other pop acts in) isn&#039;t particularly cheap--and probably isn&#039;t any cheaper than bringing in big name classical soloists either!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a very good point!  Added cost to concerts which already don&#8217;t pay for themselves!  One of the reason the Louisville Orchestra here gained its international rep for doing new music back in the 50s was specifically because they focused on commisioning and performing new works rather than hiring expensive soloists to play with the orchestra.  They just recently did a concert with the Indigo Girls and I imagine the cost for bringing them (and other pop acts in) isn&#8217;t particularly cheap&#8211;and probably isn&#8217;t any cheaper than bringing in big name classical soloists either!</p>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by Jon Silpayamanant</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5004</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon Silpayamanant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 May 2013 18:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5004</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh--that&#039;s excellent!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh&#8211;that&#8217;s excellent!</p>
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		<title>Comment on An Annotated Bibliographic Timeline of &#8220;Orchestra Crisis&#8221; by 113yearslater</title>
		<link>http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/an-annotated-bibliographic-timeline-of-orchestra-crisis/#comment-5003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[113yearslater]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 May 2013 04:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silpayamanant.wordpress.com/?p=2987#comment-5003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know it just occurred to me (it&#039;s me again, other blog) that with all of the video/dance/visual whatnot that orchestras are being asked to include in their performances to attract people, the number of people who will be needed to realize a concert is only going up.  The same people who are bringing up the cost disease about orchestras are also the ones who want the concerts to involve more grand spectacle ... which will make their cost disease arguments worse.  o_O]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know it just occurred to me (it&#8217;s me again, other blog) that with all of the video/dance/visual whatnot that orchestras are being asked to include in their performances to attract people, the number of people who will be needed to realize a concert is only going up.  The same people who are bringing up the cost disease about orchestras are also the ones who want the concerts to involve more grand spectacle &#8230; which will make their cost disease arguments worse.  o_O</p>
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